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	<title>Comments on: Coaching ramblings from China</title>
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	<description>Blogging about Agile Development, especially embedded.  Follow me on twitter: jwgrenning</description>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-1356</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ha, interesting. I can imagine how you felt with your adventures. I had experience with my friends/colleagues visiting too. I just started using TDD recently( still with a lot of confusions and things I don&#039;t really know how ot do yet. ). I was actually looking at your article on &quot;embedded TDD&quot; while I saw this post. Interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ha, interesting. I can imagine how you felt with your adventures. I had experience with my friends/colleagues visiting too. I just started using TDD recently( still with a lot of confusions and things I don&#8217;t really know how ot do yet. ). I was actually looking at your article on &#8220;embedded TDD&#8221; while I saw this post. Interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Feathers</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Feathers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 01:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-236</guid>
		<description>James, great subject for a blog.  

I&#039;ve been spending quite a bit of time with non-native English speakers also.  One thing that helps me communicate is explicit enunciation: I try to pronounce consonants distinctly and separate words clearly.  This helps people who were introduced to English through the written word.

One problem that I run into frequently is something a friend calls the &quot;missing predicate&quot; problem.  The person I&#039;m talking to says something which sounds like the subject of a sentence, but I&#039;m not sure what their intention is toward it.  It seems that there is an understanding that is left unstated.  To get past that, I offer a predicate and ask.  Someone I met in India told me that she believes that this is an artifact of Indian language, but I have run into it elsewhere as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, great subject for a blog.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been spending quite a bit of time with non-native English speakers also.  One thing that helps me communicate is explicit enunciation: I try to pronounce consonants distinctly and separate words clearly.  This helps people who were introduced to English through the written word.</p>
<p>One problem that I run into frequently is something a friend calls the &#8220;missing predicate&#8221; problem.  The person I&#8217;m talking to says something which sounds like the subject of a sentence, but I&#8217;m not sure what their intention is toward it.  It seems that there is an understanding that is left unstated.  To get past that, I offer a predicate and ask.  Someone I met in India told me that she believes that this is an artifact of Indian language, but I have run into it elsewhere as well.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jwgrenning</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>jwgrenning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-233</guid>
		<description>Do you have any suggestions how to elicit other signs of understanding?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you have any suggestions how to elicit other signs of understanding?</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 05:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-231</guid>
		<description>Sound good.  As a non English native,I want to add something. 


Use some example if you find hard to make you understood. For ex. We use plane making to emphasize our code&#039;s reliability importance.  

prepare a e-dictionary on hand. Either computer or smart phones with dictionary installed. It will quickly correct the misunderstanding or strange accent. 

&quot;Look for signs of understanding.&quot; is very important. In fact, for some culture like China it&#039;s impolite to say don&#039;t understand. (Regret about that)


Thank you for your kind help in TDD. Hope it&#039;s helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sound good.  As a non English native,I want to add something. </p>
<p>Use some example if you find hard to make you understood. For ex. We use plane making to emphasize our code&#8217;s reliability importance.  </p>
<p>prepare a e-dictionary on hand. Either computer or smart phones with dictionary installed. It will quickly correct the misunderstanding or strange accent. </p>
<p>&#8220;Look for signs of understanding.&#8221; is very important. In fact, for some culture like China it&#8217;s impolite to say don&#8217;t understand. (Regret about that)</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind help in TDD. Hope it&#8217;s helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: jwgrenning</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>jwgrenning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-227</guid>
		<description>Hi Marta

Thank you for your thoughtful *ramblings*.  Yeah, I did not think to mention the cultural barriers, I&#039;ll have to give that some thought.  The cultural barriers inhibit looking for signs of understanding.  In front of a group of people the signs are often missing, as in a group people are less likely to show their lack of understanding, regardless of language.  When I&#039;m with a fully English speaking group, I find that if I ask a question like &quot;Who is not finished with the exercise?&quot; I may get no reply. If I reverse the questions &quot;Who is done with the exercise?&quot; Then some hands go up.  I have noticed in some foreign (to me) cultures that I don&#039;t get an answer to either.  So no one is finished and no one is not finished. The class is in some quantum state, neither done or not done like Schrödinger&#039;s Cat. The I start thinking: Should I speak more slowly, should I try different words.  In some cases I think this is cultural.

I definitely see the layering of understanding you mentioned.  To help get the layers to form, choosing different words, drawing pictures, writing key ideas in English, writing some code, are ways to get the layers forming.  In hind site I have seen the &quot;talk amongst yourselves&quot; be very helpful.  One session I was in the participant would actively stop me so they could talk amongst themselves.  They would have an animated discussion lasting five+ minutes, completely ignoring me (which was totally OK).  When they would finish, one of them would turn back to me and say &quot;OK, you can continue&quot;. 

I have found myself in a situation with two foreign speakers with differing levels of English language command.  I asked the more accomplished English speaker to talk to the less accomplished speaker to clarify.  That worked well in that situation.  I definitely think I&#039;ll use your tea trick, but I&#039;ll probably get a coffee.

Thank you for your insights and kind words.

James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Marta</p>
<p>Thank you for your thoughtful *ramblings*.  Yeah, I did not think to mention the cultural barriers, I&#8217;ll have to give that some thought.  The cultural barriers inhibit looking for signs of understanding.  In front of a group of people the signs are often missing, as in a group people are less likely to show their lack of understanding, regardless of language.  When I&#8217;m with a fully English speaking group, I find that if I ask a question like &#8220;Who is not finished with the exercise?&#8221; I may get no reply. If I reverse the questions &#8220;Who is done with the exercise?&#8221; Then some hands go up.  I have noticed in some foreign (to me) cultures that I don&#8217;t get an answer to either.  So no one is finished and no one is not finished. The class is in some quantum state, neither done or not done like Schrödinger&#8217;s Cat. The I start thinking: Should I speak more slowly, should I try different words.  In some cases I think this is cultural.</p>
<p>I definitely see the layering of understanding you mentioned.  To help get the layers to form, choosing different words, drawing pictures, writing key ideas in English, writing some code, are ways to get the layers forming.  In hind site I have seen the &#8220;talk amongst yourselves&#8221; be very helpful.  One session I was in the participant would actively stop me so they could talk amongst themselves.  They would have an animated discussion lasting five+ minutes, completely ignoring me (which was totally OK).  When they would finish, one of them would turn back to me and say &#8220;OK, you can continue&#8221;. </p>
<p>I have found myself in a situation with two foreign speakers with differing levels of English language command.  I asked the more accomplished English speaker to talk to the less accomplished speaker to clarify.  That worked well in that situation.  I definitely think I&#8217;ll use your tea trick, but I&#8217;ll probably get a coffee.</p>
<p>Thank you for your insights and kind words.</p>
<p>James</p>
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		<title>By: Marta Chamorro-Fulla</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Marta Chamorro-Fulla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-226</guid>
		<description>Hi James. I&#039;ve been following your ramblings with interest for quite a while and today I felt maybe it was time to try to say something back.

It was the sentence &quot;I’ve learned a few things, I hope, about coaching people who don’t speak my language as a first language&quot;. I am a native Spanish speaker who has learned &quot;in English&quot; (and mainly also in England) to develop software. I am now trying to share some of the tricks I&#039;ve learned and believe are useful with others, who are neither English nor Spanish native speakers. I live and work in Finland now and my colleagues are half from around here and the other half from the rest of the world.

From previous experiences, I&#039;ve learned a few things, I also hope, about coaching others &quot;in English and in England&quot;. I&#039;ve also learned that it is something I find hugely rewarding, to &quot;get&quot; to someone (technically) and to find common (and many times new) understanding, to use what I&#039;ve learned to help others solve new problems... I like working with people, always have.

But I am finding it difficult to &quot;translate&quot; my past experience into this new culture. You don&#039;t mention about cultural differences on your ramblings from China. I am finding them both fascinating and challenging on my daily work. When it gets tough, I say to myself that these are new tricks that I will have to learn, and that at the end of the day I will be a better coach for that.

That&#039;s enough of *me* rambling, anyway. I will try to get to some potentially useful ramblings now. About communicating with people in different languages. You say to &quot;look for signs of understanding&quot;, and I&#039;d like to build on that. In normal conversation, it seems to me that people tend to grab the bits of information that their brain can process with less effort first, to try and &quot;make sense&quot; of what is being said (use context to infer meaning). That can easily lead to concepts and ideas being only half-understood, but understanding can be built-up iteratively that way, on top of the recipient&#039;s existing knowledge. You can almost &quot;see&quot; the layers being built. It&#039;s great!

When language is an issue this behaviour is even more evident, but the bits which are readily understood can depend very much on a person&#039;s familiarity with the words you&#039;re using, not so much with their technical knowledge. Similarly, when speaking back in a language you&#039;re not familiar with, the information you &quot;put on the wire&quot; is filtered by your command of the language, and details that you would have wished to go into (and you realise of that later on, when you&#039;ve lost the context) are left out.

Not much of a point so far: command (or rather lack of it) of the language acts as a filter in both the emitter and the receiver in ways that may be difficult to see, or control.

So for me, it becomes then necessary to actively keep this in mind, to be aware that there are things that are not even said, realise when it is happening, right before your eyes, so that you can do something about it there and then, before the context is lost. To be also aware that there are things which are &quot;not heard&quot;, and make note of that, to reiterate them on the next loop, maybe trying a different way. It becomes crucial to actively &quot;test for understanding&quot; both yours and the other person or persons you&#039;re trying to communicate with.

And here&#039;s where the &quot;cultural&quot; twist comes too. You don&#039;t want to offend or frustrate the other person. They are not stupid, they know their stuff, it is just the language getting in the way. They may already feeling a bit frustrated that they have to use &quot;your&quot; language. So you need to be non-threatening, be respectful. And you have to know a bit &quot;how&quot; to do that in that context and in that culture (and ideally, with that person). It is not a trivial matter. You say: &quot;have fun, don&#039;t get frustrated&quot;, I agree, but you have to know how to, how does &quot;fun&quot; and &quot;funny&quot; translate in this context? You don&#039;t want to end up laughing “at” rather than “with”.

I would say that smiling helps, but I remember the time I was presenting some new design ideas and one of the persons in the room asked me &quot;that what you&#039;ve just said, is it a good thing or a bad thing?&quot;. The problem was a) that he wasn&#039;t understanding what I was saying and b) he was trying to again use context to infer meaning by following my facial expressions and didn&#039;t find many clues there, as I was smiling all the time.

Something I&#039;ve found helpful at times is to leave the room. In a meeting where I am the only reason why English is the spoken language, if I see that English is getting on the way, I get out of the way... it is not worth it me being there! I have the perfect excuse, as from my time in England I&#039;ve become a heavy tea-drinker, so I get out to make myself a cup of tea (non-threatening). When I come back I usually find the discussion has livened-up and ideas are again flowing... I don&#039;t understand anything that is being said any more, but then I can ask, catch up and keep on going (back to English again).

I learned that from my children, they are tri-lingual and I sometimes can see how they get stuck not being able to say something in a particular language (usually Spanish if they are talking to me). Then I ask them to say it in English or Finnish, and that usually un-stucks their brains. It seems to me that it helps to say it aloud in the language that comes more naturally to you, and then translate later, once the idea has been formulated.

Anyway, this got really long. Just want to take this chance to also thank you for all the useful information and experiences you&#039;ve been sharing. 

Best regards,

Marta</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi James. I&#8217;ve been following your ramblings with interest for quite a while and today I felt maybe it was time to try to say something back.</p>
<p>It was the sentence &#8220;I’ve learned a few things, I hope, about coaching people who don’t speak my language as a first language&#8221;. I am a native Spanish speaker who has learned &#8220;in English&#8221; (and mainly also in England) to develop software. I am now trying to share some of the tricks I&#8217;ve learned and believe are useful with others, who are neither English nor Spanish native speakers. I live and work in Finland now and my colleagues are half from around here and the other half from the rest of the world.</p>
<p>From previous experiences, I&#8217;ve learned a few things, I also hope, about coaching others &#8220;in English and in England&#8221;. I&#8217;ve also learned that it is something I find hugely rewarding, to &#8220;get&#8221; to someone (technically) and to find common (and many times new) understanding, to use what I&#8217;ve learned to help others solve new problems&#8230; I like working with people, always have.</p>
<p>But I am finding it difficult to &#8220;translate&#8221; my past experience into this new culture. You don&#8217;t mention about cultural differences on your ramblings from China. I am finding them both fascinating and challenging on my daily work. When it gets tough, I say to myself that these are new tricks that I will have to learn, and that at the end of the day I will be a better coach for that.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s enough of *me* rambling, anyway. I will try to get to some potentially useful ramblings now. About communicating with people in different languages. You say to &#8220;look for signs of understanding&#8221;, and I&#8217;d like to build on that. In normal conversation, it seems to me that people tend to grab the bits of information that their brain can process with less effort first, to try and &#8220;make sense&#8221; of what is being said (use context to infer meaning). That can easily lead to concepts and ideas being only half-understood, but understanding can be built-up iteratively that way, on top of the recipient&#8217;s existing knowledge. You can almost &#8220;see&#8221; the layers being built. It&#8217;s great!</p>
<p>When language is an issue this behaviour is even more evident, but the bits which are readily understood can depend very much on a person&#8217;s familiarity with the words you&#8217;re using, not so much with their technical knowledge. Similarly, when speaking back in a language you&#8217;re not familiar with, the information you &#8220;put on the wire&#8221; is filtered by your command of the language, and details that you would have wished to go into (and you realise of that later on, when you&#8217;ve lost the context) are left out.</p>
<p>Not much of a point so far: command (or rather lack of it) of the language acts as a filter in both the emitter and the receiver in ways that may be difficult to see, or control.</p>
<p>So for me, it becomes then necessary to actively keep this in mind, to be aware that there are things that are not even said, realise when it is happening, right before your eyes, so that you can do something about it there and then, before the context is lost. To be also aware that there are things which are &#8220;not heard&#8221;, and make note of that, to reiterate them on the next loop, maybe trying a different way. It becomes crucial to actively &#8220;test for understanding&#8221; both yours and the other person or persons you&#8217;re trying to communicate with.</p>
<p>And here&#8217;s where the &#8220;cultural&#8221; twist comes too. You don&#8217;t want to offend or frustrate the other person. They are not stupid, they know their stuff, it is just the language getting in the way. They may already feeling a bit frustrated that they have to use &#8220;your&#8221; language. So you need to be non-threatening, be respectful. And you have to know a bit &#8220;how&#8221; to do that in that context and in that culture (and ideally, with that person). It is not a trivial matter. You say: &#8220;have fun, don&#8217;t get frustrated&#8221;, I agree, but you have to know how to, how does &#8220;fun&#8221; and &#8220;funny&#8221; translate in this context? You don&#8217;t want to end up laughing “at” rather than “with”.</p>
<p>I would say that smiling helps, but I remember the time I was presenting some new design ideas and one of the persons in the room asked me &#8220;that what you&#8217;ve just said, is it a good thing or a bad thing?&#8221;. The problem was a) that he wasn&#8217;t understanding what I was saying and b) he was trying to again use context to infer meaning by following my facial expressions and didn&#8217;t find many clues there, as I was smiling all the time.</p>
<p>Something I&#8217;ve found helpful at times is to leave the room. In a meeting where I am the only reason why English is the spoken language, if I see that English is getting on the way, I get out of the way&#8230; it is not worth it me being there! I have the perfect excuse, as from my time in England I&#8217;ve become a heavy tea-drinker, so I get out to make myself a cup of tea (non-threatening). When I come back I usually find the discussion has livened-up and ideas are again flowing&#8230; I don&#8217;t understand anything that is being said any more, but then I can ask, catch up and keep on going (back to English again).</p>
<p>I learned that from my children, they are tri-lingual and I sometimes can see how they get stuck not being able to say something in a particular language (usually Spanish if they are talking to me). Then I ask them to say it in English or Finnish, and that usually un-stucks their brains. It seems to me that it helps to say it aloud in the language that comes more naturally to you, and then translate later, once the idea has been formulated.</p>
<p>Anyway, this got really long. Just want to take this chance to also thank you for all the useful information and experiences you&#8217;ve been sharing. </p>
<p>Best regards,</p>
<p>Marta</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jwgrenning</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>jwgrenning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-225</guid>
		<description>You can probably tell, I enjoyed my adventure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can probably tell, I enjoyed my adventure.</p>
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		<title>By: linchuan</title>
		<link>http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/24/comment-page-1#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>linchuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/?p=24#comment-224</guid>
		<description>thanks for your efforts. i didn&#039;t know your adventures in your trip to the gathering. that was really adventurous:) linchuan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for your efforts. i didn&#8217;t know your adventures in your trip to the gathering. that was really adventurous:) linchuan</p>
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